Introduction to Vinyl - Revision history

Axon: Fork content into three separate pages

2006-09-08T02:42:30Z

Fork content into three separate pages

← Older revision		Revision as of 02:42, 8 September 2006
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	~~=Why vinyl?=~~		''This page has been split up into [[Advantages of Vinyl]], [[Disadvantages of Vinyl]] and [[Vinyl Myths]].''
	~~Why invest in an obsolete, 50+ year old music medium?~~

	* Used vinyl is often extremely inexpensive - 50 cents to two dollars a disc is common for some releases. Vinyl is a very cheap way to expand your collection in older artists that you cannot justify spending $15/CD on listening to.
	* Some albums have simply never been released on CD.
	* Some album art is better suited to the larger scale of LP covers and sleeves.
	* The mastering of an original LP release is often considered superior to a CD remaster of the same release. This ~~can be for any number of reasons, including:~~
	** Increased use of compression and limiting on the CD release, reducing dynamics
	** The master tapes have often degraded in the time between the LP and CD releases
	** The equalization and even mixing of some CD releases is radically different than on the LP releases. For instance, many Zappa LPs have had entire drum tracks replaced for the CD release.
	* Properly maintained vinyl is of a surprisingly good quality and is often not objectionable.
	* It can be safely purchased as a long term investment.
	** As a playback standard, vinyl has ~~remained essentially unchanged for 50 years, and turntables will continue to be manufactured~~ into ~~the distant future. Unlike many digital data formats, vinyl has no risk of having no available playback devices.~~
	** Properly maintained disc records (including both vinyl and shellac) have survived to the present day with little degredation. The long term chemical processes involved with vinyl are believed to keep it stable for 100 years or more.
	** While large swings in value have plagued vinyl as collector's items, there are no long term risks to future devaluation for vinyl as a whole.
	** Well built turntables should last 40 years or more and are refurbishable.

	~~=Why not vinyl?=~~
	~~There are several risks and disadvantages to vinyl, compared to other (digital) audio technologies.~~

	* Vinyl is harder to [[Vinyl ~~Maintenance\|maintain~~]] than CDs, and should ideally be stored in temperature- and humidity-controlled environments. (However, air conditioning, perhaps with a dehumidifier, is almost always sufficient.) Mold can grow on vinyl and may permamently damage it and its sleeve, ~~and can spread from record to record.~~
	* Vinyl is very easy to damage during playback. Any scraping of the surface can permanently compromise the sound quality.
	* [[~~Surface noise]], while often inaudible, will always be present and measurable, even on a brand new LP.~~
	* The sound quality of a record cannot be determined until you play it, increasing the risk of the purchase. Even brand new, sealed LPs can have significant pressing and warping problems that may make it unusable for listening purposes.
	* Turntables and cartridges require periodic maintenance and alignment by a professional, usually a repairman or a dealer. Otherwise you must learn how to tune a system by hand, which may require a great deal of time to perfect.
	* Turntables may require realignment if they are moved.
	* Any play of a record, even one, has the risk of permanently damaging the record. Repeated playback with an excessively worn or misaligned cartridge will cause permanent damage.
	* Vinyl playback is not nearly as portable as other technologies. Portable record players exist, but they are considered of inferior sound quality and require a motionless playing surface.
	* Investing in a high quality vinyl system is hundreds to thousands of dollars more expensive than investing in a high quality digital audio system.
	* Cartridge stylii wear out over time (typically 200-1000 hours) and require periodic replacement. High quality cartridges generally cost between $60-$6000. At the upper end of cartridge cost, playing a single LP may cost $1 in stylus wear alone.
	* Records are large and heavy. Transporting them correctly is logistically difficult.
	* The "book value" of many LPs, representing both its collector's value and its musical value, is often quite high - anywhere from $10-$20 for either new or used LPs to over a hundred dollars for collectible LPs.
	* LPs in general are neither overvalued nor undervalued. While they do not risk becoming worthless, they usually do not carry their value well unless certain releases become more collectible. Vinyl is not a particularly safe investment for collection or financial purposes only.

	~~Financially, any benefits of the cheaper media must be compared against the amortized cost of the equipment needed to play and maintain it.~~

	~~=Vinyl Myths and Misconceptions=~~
	~~''Note: These are preliminary notes, are a little opinionated, and are subject to change. Please edit as appropriate or comment on the discussion page.''~~
	* '''The vinyl surface is heated to several hundred degrees on playback, and repeat play of the same track should wait at least several hours until the vinyl has cooled'''.
	** Obviously, the temperature of the record is at room temperature except at the stylus contact point - otherwise the record would completely melt.
	** It is true that back-to-back playback will introduce slightly more distortion than a fresh play. This is believed to be a temporary effect and goes away after approx. 10 minutes.
	** Repeated playback (no matter what the timeframe) carries the risk of permanent damage.
	** No published evidence exists of back-to-back playback causing permanent damage.
	* '''Proper vinyl playback is click-free.'''
	** Pops and clicks are often not audible during a song on a well-maintained record and should not distract from the listening experience.
	** No evidence exists of a record that is shown to be played back with absolutely no pops or clicks whatsoever.
	** They are introduced at virtually every stage of production, from cutting the laquer to the pressing to the playback itself. Some pops and ticks are pressed into the record itself.
	** Because of the lack of evidence for a tick-free record and the engineering factors making such a record extremely rare, it is quite likely that no record exists that is truly free from all pops and ticks.
	* '''Vinyl is better than digital because the analog signal on the vinyl tracks the analog signal exactly, while digital is quantized into steps.'''
	** PCM encoding (used on CDs and DVD-A) records audio data in a quantized format. Analog formats do not have a measurable time or signal resolution.
	** Analog encoding still has many measurable and audible faults, potentially including THD, noise, IMD, etc.
	** PCM can encode time delays to any arbitrarily small length. Time delays of 40ns or less - a tiny fraction of the sample rate - are easily achievable.
	** Signal quantization (ie 16-bit or 24-bit) only results in increased noise in a correct implementation. No distortion is introduced and the noise is of questionable audibility under most listening conditions.
	** The term "analog", by definition, means that the signal is not and cannot be a perfect reproduction of the original - it is merely an "analogue" of the existing signal, corrupted in the process of encoding.
	** In short, by any numerical basis, vinyl is not as accurate as competing digital formats.
	* '''Vinyl is objectively worse than digital.'''
	* '''Vinyl is objectively better than digital.'''
	* '''Adding a penny to the headshell improves tracking/sound.'''
	** The trackability of a cartridge is related to the mechanical parameters of the tonearm and stylus assembly.
	** Adding weight to the headshell (and adjusting the counterweight to compensate) increases the effective mass of the tonearm and reduces its resonant frequency. If the resonant frequency is excessively high - 15-20hz as measured by a test record - the weight may improve trackability by moving the resonance out of ~~the audible range. Otherwise, it will generally only reduce trackability.~~
	* '''Vinyl ~~sounds better with the dustcover on/off.'''~~
	** The sound emanated by the vibrating stylus is audible and can theoretically bounce off the dustcover and back onto the record.
	** Moving the dustcover compromises the balance of spring- or foam-damped plinths. The azimuth error, if not fixed, may be more audible than the reflections made by the cover.
	** No published evidence exists of the dustcover having this effect.
	** Keeping the dustcover on can reduce the amount of dust settling on the record during playback, improving sound quality with long-term use.
	** Dust covers keep dust off the record mat, which can also get on the record.
	* '''A cartridge is permanently damaged and should be replaced if the stylus appears even slightly bent.'''
	** Bent stylii cause azimuth and alignment errors which may be audible. In extreme cases they can cause record damage.
	** Cartridges are hand-built and always have some finite tolerance in their construction. No stylus is completely straight, down to the atomic level.
	* '''A record cleaning machine is required for optimal playback.'''
	** Record cleaning machines were not used by the vast majority of the music-playing populace during the heyday of vinyl.
	** Few record stores use record cleaning machines, and only a few more perform a cleaning regimen.

	~~[[Category:Guides~~]]
	[[~~Category:~~Vinyl ~~Guide~~]]

Axon at 01:59, 8 September 2006

2006-09-08T01:59:48Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 01:59, 8 September 2006
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	~~''This article is in a series pertaining to vinyl setup. For the other articles, see the top-level [[Vinyl Guide]].''~~

	=Why vinyl?=		=Why vinyl?=
	Why invest in an obsolete, 50+ year old music medium?		Why invest in an obsolete, 50+ year old music medium?

Beto: added main category

2006-09-05T18:32:42Z

added main category

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:32, 5 September 2006
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	** Few record stores use record cleaning machines, and only a few more perform a cleaning regimen.		** Few record stores use record cleaning machines, and only a few more perform a cleaning regimen.

	[[Category: Vinyl Guide]]		[[Category:Guides]]
			[[Category:Vinyl Guide]]

Axon: /* Vinyl Myths and Misconceptions */

2006-09-03T20:25:37Z

Vinyl Myths and Misconceptions

← Older revision		Revision as of 20:25, 3 September 2006
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	=Vinyl Myths and Misconceptions=		=Vinyl Myths and Misconceptions=
	''Note: These are preliminary notes, are a little opinionated, and are subject to change. Please edit as appropriate or comment on the discussion page.''		''Note: These are preliminary notes, are a little opinionated, and are subject to change. Please edit as appropriate or comment on the discussion page.''
	* '''The vinyl surface is heated to several hundred degrees on playback, and repeat play of the same track should wait until the vinyl has cooled'''.		* '''The vinyl surface is heated to several hundred degrees on playback, and repeat play of the same track should wait at least several hours until the vinyl has cooled'''.
			** Obviously, the temperature of the record is at room temperature except at the stylus contact point - otherwise the record would completely melt.
			** It is true that back-to-back playback will introduce slightly more distortion than a fresh play. This is believed to be a temporary effect and goes away after approx. 10 minutes.
			** Repeated playback (no matter what the timeframe) carries the risk of permanent damage.
			** No published evidence exists of back-to-back playback causing permanent damage.
	* '''Proper vinyl playback is click-free.'''		* '''Proper vinyl playback is click-free.'''
			** Pops and clicks are often not audible during a song on a well-maintained record and should not distract from the listening experience.
			** No evidence exists of a record that is shown to be played back with absolutely no pops or clicks whatsoever.
			** They are introduced at virtually every stage of production, from cutting the laquer to the pressing to the playback itself. Some pops and ticks are pressed into the record itself.
			** Because of the lack of evidence for a tick-free record and the engineering factors making such a record extremely rare, it is quite likely that no record exists that is truly free from all pops and ticks.
	* '''Vinyl is better than digital because the analog signal on the vinyl tracks the analog signal exactly, while digital is quantized into steps.'''		* '''Vinyl is better than digital because the analog signal on the vinyl tracks the analog signal exactly, while digital is quantized into steps.'''
			** PCM encoding (used on CDs and DVD-A) records audio data in a quantized format. Analog formats do not have a measurable time or signal resolution.
			** Analog encoding still has many measurable and audible faults, potentially including THD, noise, IMD, etc.
			** PCM can encode time delays to any arbitrarily small length. Time delays of 40ns or less - a tiny fraction of the sample rate - are easily achievable.
			** Signal quantization (ie 16-bit or 24-bit) only results in increased noise in a correct implementation. No distortion is introduced and the noise is of questionable audibility under most listening conditions.
			** The term "analog", by definition, means that the signal is not and cannot be a perfect reproduction of the original - it is merely an "analogue" of the existing signal, corrupted in the process of encoding.
			** In short, by any numerical basis, vinyl is not as accurate as competing digital formats.
	* '''Vinyl is objectively worse than digital.'''		* '''Vinyl is objectively worse than digital.'''
	* '''Vinyl is objectively better than digital.'''		* '''Vinyl is objectively better than digital.'''
	* '''Adding a penny to the headshell improves tracking/sound.'''		* '''Adding a penny to the headshell improves tracking/sound.'''
			** The trackability of a cartridge is related to the mechanical parameters of the tonearm and stylus assembly.
			** Adding weight to the headshell (and adjusting the counterweight to compensate) increases the effective mass of the tonearm and reduces its resonant frequency. If the resonant frequency is excessively high - 15-20hz as measured by a test record - the weight may improve trackability by moving the resonance out of the audible range. Otherwise, it will generally only reduce trackability.
	* '''Vinyl sounds better with the dustcover on/off.'''		* '''Vinyl sounds better with the dustcover on/off.'''
			** The sound emanated by the vibrating stylus is audible and can theoretically bounce off the dustcover and back onto the record.
			** Moving the dustcover compromises the balance of spring- or foam-damped plinths. The azimuth error, if not fixed, may be more audible than the reflections made by the cover.
			** No published evidence exists of the dustcover having this effect.
			** Keeping the dustcover on can reduce the amount of dust settling on the record during playback, improving sound quality with long-term use.
			** Dust covers keep dust off the record mat, which can also get on the record.
	* '''A cartridge is permanently damaged and should be replaced if the stylus appears even slightly bent.'''		* '''A cartridge is permanently damaged and should be replaced if the stylus appears even slightly bent.'''
	* '''A record cleaning machine is required for ~~proper~~ playback.'''		** Bent stylii cause azimuth and alignment errors which may be audible. In extreme cases they can cause record damage.
			** Cartridges are hand-built and always have some finite tolerance in their construction. No stylus is completely straight, down to the atomic level.
			* '''A record cleaning machine is required for optimal playback.'''
			** Record cleaning machines were not used by the vast majority of the music-playing populace during the heyday of vinyl.
			** Few record stores use record cleaning machines, and only a few more perform a cleaning regimen.

	[[Category: Vinyl Guide]]		[[Category: Vinyl Guide]]

Axon: /* Why not vinyl? */

2006-09-03T18:17:47Z

Why not vinyl?

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:17, 3 September 2006
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	* Records are large and heavy. Transporting them correctly is logistically difficult.		* Records are large and heavy. Transporting them correctly is logistically difficult.
	* The "book value" of many LPs, representing both its collector's value and its musical value, is often quite high - anywhere from $10-$20 for either new or used LPs to over a hundred dollars for collectible LPs.		* The "book value" of many LPs, representing both its collector's value and its musical value, is often quite high - anywhere from $10-$20 for either new or used LPs to over a hundred dollars for collectible LPs.
			* LPs in general are neither overvalued nor undervalued. While they do not risk becoming worthless, they usually do not carry their value well unless certain releases become more collectible. Vinyl is not a particularly safe investment for collection or financial purposes only.

	Financially, any benefits of the cheaper media must be compared against the amortized cost of the equipment needed to play and maintain it.		Financially, any benefits of the cheaper media must be compared against the amortized cost of the equipment needed to play and maintain it.

Axon: Changes to vinyl advantages

2006-09-03T18:14:46Z

Changes to vinyl advantages

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:14, 3 September 2006
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	Why invest in an obsolete, 50+ year old music medium?		Why invest in an obsolete, 50+ year old music medium?

	* Used vinyl is often extremely inexpensive - 50 cents to two dollars a disc is ~~somewhat~~ common. Vinyl is a very cheap way to expand your collection in older artists that you cannot justify spending $15/CD on listening to.		* Used vinyl is often extremely inexpensive - 50 cents to two dollars a disc is common for some releases. Vinyl is a very cheap way to expand your collection in older artists that you cannot justify spending $15/CD on listening to.
	* Some albums have simply never been released on CD.		* Some albums have simply never been released on CD.
	* Some album art is better suited to the larger scale of LP covers and sleeves.		* Some album art is better suited to the larger scale of LP covers and sleeves.
Line 11:		Line 11:
	** The master tapes have often degraded in the time between the LP and CD releases		** The master tapes have often degraded in the time between the LP and CD releases
	** The equalization and even mixing of some CD releases is radically different than on the LP releases. For instance, many Zappa LPs have had entire drum tracks replaced for the CD release.		** The equalization and even mixing of some CD releases is radically different than on the LP releases. For instance, many Zappa LPs have had entire drum tracks replaced for the CD release.
	* Properly maintained vinyl is of a surprisingly good quality and is often not objectionable.		* Properly maintained vinyl is of a surprisingly good quality and is often not objectionable.
			* It can be safely purchased as a long term investment.
			** As a playback standard, vinyl has remained essentially unchanged for 50 years, and turntables will continue to be manufactured into the distant future. Unlike many digital data formats, vinyl has no risk of having no available playback devices.
			** Properly maintained disc records (including both vinyl and shellac) have survived to the present day with little degredation. The long term chemical processes involved with vinyl are believed to keep it stable for 100 years or more.
			** While large swings in value have plagued vinyl as collector's items, there are no long term risks to future devaluation for vinyl as a whole.
			** Well built turntables should last 40 years or more and are refurbishable.

	=Why not vinyl?=		=Why not vinyl?=

Axon: Some reformulations and additions to vinyl disadvantages

2006-09-03T18:06:36Z

Some reformulations and additions to vinyl disadvantages

← Older revision		Revision as of 18:06, 3 September 2006
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	=Why not vinyl?=		=Why not vinyl?=
	There are several disadvantages.		There are several risks and disadvantages to vinyl, compared to other (digital) audio technologies.

	* Vinyl is ~~particularly finicky~~ to [[Vinyl Maintenance\|maintain]] and easy to damage.		* Vinyl is harder to [[Vinyl Maintenance\|maintain]] than CDs, and should ideally be stored in temperature- and humidity-controlled environments. (However, air conditioning, perhaps with a dehumidifier, is almost always sufficient.) Mold can grow on vinyl and may permamently damage it and its sleeve, and can spread from record to record.
	* [[Surface noise]], while often inaudible, will always be present, even on a brand new LP.		* Vinyl is very easy to damage during playback. Any scraping of the surface can permanently compromise the sound quality.
	* The quality of a record ~~often~~ cannot be determined until you play it, increasing the risk of the purchase. Even brand new, sealed LPs can have significant pressing and warping problems.		* [[Surface noise]], while often inaudible, will always be present and measurable, even on a brand new LP.
	* ~~Not~~ portable.		* The sound quality of a record cannot be determined until you play it, increasing the risk of the purchase. Even brand new, sealed LPs can have significant pressing and warping problems that may make it unusable for listening purposes.
	* Investing in a ~~reasonable~~ vinyl system is hundreds to thousands of dollars more expensive than investing in a ~~reasonable CD/computer~~ system~~. Financially, any benefits of the cheaper media must be compared against the amortized cost of the equipment needed to play and maintain it~~.		* Turntables and cartridges require periodic maintenance and alignment by a professional, usually a repairman or a dealer. Otherwise you must learn how to tune a system by hand, which may require a great deal of time to perfect.
	* ~~There is also a not insignificant running cost in playing LPs. The [[stylus]] does~~ wear out, and ~~top class [[Cartridge\|~~cartridges~~]] use stylii costing several hundred (or even thousand) dollars~~. ~~Playing one LP with an audiophile [[~~cartridge~~]] can easily~~ cost ~~over~~ a ~~dollar~~ in stylus wear.		* Turntables may require realignment if they are moved.
			* Any play of a record, even one, has the risk of permanently damaging the record. Repeated playback with an excessively worn or misaligned cartridge will cause permanent damage.
			* Vinyl playback is not nearly as portable as other technologies. Portable record players exist, but they are considered of inferior sound quality and require a motionless playing surface.
			* Investing in a high quality vinyl system is hundreds to thousands of dollars more expensive than investing in a high quality digital audio system.
			* Cartridge stylii wear out over time (typically 200-1000 hours) and require periodic replacement. High quality cartridges generally cost between $60-$6000. At the upper end of cartridge cost, playing a single LP may cost $1 in stylus wear alone.
	* Records are large and heavy. Transporting them correctly is logistically difficult.		* Records are large and heavy. Transporting them correctly is logistically difficult.
	* ~~Many record stores have a considerable markup on used~~ LPs and ~~it may be hard to find records for cheaper than~~ $10 ~~in some stores. This makes it much harder~~ to ~~completely justify vinyl on~~ a ~~financial basis~~.		* The "book value" of many LPs, representing both its collector's value and its musical value, is often quite high - anywhere from $10-$20 for either new or used LPs to over a hundred dollars for collectible LPs.
	* Some vinyl has a very high collector's value which makes it ~~nearly impossible to locate for prices cheaper than CD~~.
			Financially, any benefits of the cheaper media must be compared against the amortized cost of the equipment needed to play and maintain it.

	=Vinyl Myths and Misconceptions=		=Vinyl Myths and Misconceptions=

Pepoluan: Added Category: Vinyl Guide

2006-09-01T22:27:59Z

Added Category: Vinyl Guide

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:27, 1 September 2006
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	* '''A cartridge is permanently damaged and should be replaced if the stylus appears even slightly bent.'''		* '''A cartridge is permanently damaged and should be replaced if the stylus appears even slightly bent.'''
	* '''A record cleaning machine is required for proper playback.'''		* '''A record cleaning machine is required for proper playback.'''

			[[Category: Vinyl Guide]]

Axon at 22:13, 25 April 2006

2006-04-25T22:13:15Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:13, 25 April 2006
Line 1:		Line 1:
			''This article is in a series pertaining to vinyl setup. For the other articles, see the top-level [[Vinyl Guide]].''

	=Why vinyl?=		=Why vinyl?=
	Why invest in an obsolete, 50+ year old music medium?		Why invest in an obsolete, 50+ year old music medium?

Axon at 22:00, 25 April 2006

2006-04-25T22:00:30Z

← Older revision		Revision as of 22:00, 25 April 2006
Line 35:		Line 35:
	* '''A cartridge is permanently damaged and should be replaced if the stylus appears even slightly bent.'''		* '''A cartridge is permanently damaged and should be replaced if the stylus appears even slightly bent.'''
	* '''A record cleaning machine is required for proper playback.'''		* '''A record cleaning machine is required for proper playback.'''

	~~=Vinyl Availability=~~
	~~Note that a lot of this info is currently US centric.~~

	The "market rate" for LPs depends primarily on the collector's value. Mass-produced and unpopular LPs will not cost more than a dollar. Original pressing Beatles LPs are usually over several hundred dollars. Jazz records tend to be very expensive. Classical records tend to be quite inexpensive. Rock, blues and electronica lie somewhere in the middle.

	Depending on how clued the store is to the by-the-book market prices of vinyl, prices can range anywhere from 50 cents on up. Record stores tend to have the highest prices and charity stores the lowest, but there are always exceptions.

	* Many cities have local record stores that specialize in certain genres. Check your yellow pages and local music listings for ads.
	* Half Price Books (US) tends to have extremely good vinyl selections. Vinyl is not transferred between stores, so the quantity/quality varies widely even by the neighborhood.
	* Goodwill, Salvation Army, and other charity stores often have good deals on vinyl.
	* The Austin Record Convention http://www.austinrecords.com/ has a very, very large quantity of LPs. Biannual. Similar conventions exist in many other large cities.

	~~=Component Availability=~~
	Buying a turntable now is a lot harder than it used to be, but there are still plenty of options. A new turntable is usually much less hassle to set up than a used turntable for a new user. Maintenance and calibration is usually much less of an issue. However prices are much higher (30-100%) than equivalent used models.

	As a general rule, '''do not purchase used cartridges, ever'''. They are the component that wears out the fastest on turntables during normal operation, and are the easiest to permanently damage. Buy them from reputable local or online sources. They do not have particularly difficult shipping requirements.

	~~==New==~~
	~~===Hifi stores===~~
	The traditional place to obtain a turntable is at a local hi-fi shop. These are becoming an endangered species in the US - many have folded or switched to home theater and car audio - but most cities usually have at least one store selling audiophile kit.

	~~Advantages:~~
	* Most hifi stores are locally owned and operated.
	* Shipping issues with turntables are already taken care of. Turntables are rather notoriously hard to ship correctly.
	* Hifi stores will usually tune/calibrate turntables free of charge on purchase.
	* You may be sending your table back to said store for maintenance, even if you purchase it elsewhere. Setting up a rapport is good.
	* Product support is often (possibly always) better from hifi stores than from any other source. A no-questions-asked tryout period between 7 and 30 days is standard for most stores.
	* They occasionally deal with both new and used gear and some very good deals are sometimes available.

	~~Disadvantages:~~
	* Hifi stores have an extremely high markup, reflecting their small consumer base. All stores have noncompete clauses with neighboring stores in order to protect said customer bases. Therefore, there is often '''no competition whatsoever''' in most product lines.
	* Along the same lines, one of the promiment reasons why online stores cannot support certain products as well as hifi stores is that online stores are technically selling outside their 'designated area'. In other words, online support is prohibited because it enroaches on hifi stores' territories. Grado products, in particular, are notoriously bad for online support.
	* Expect to haggle.
	* Hifi stores usually cater to the extremely high end and will often not have much under $500 in the way of turntables.

	~~===Mass market stores===~~
	~~Best Buy, Circuit City, etc. They usually have a small selection of retro turntables, and perhaps more if they are ordered to the store beforehand.~~

	~~Advantages:~~
	* Cheap (most turntables under $200)
	* Easily accessible

	~~Disadvantages:~~
	* Very few turntables are sold that are considered any good
	* Very few available accessories and no cartridges
	* 30-day return policy only for support. Hifi stores can actually repair things.

	~~===Online stores===~~
	~~Quite a number of online audiophile stores carry turntables of all makes and models.~~

	~~Advantages:~~
	* Very inexpensive prices for most turntables
	* Shipping is usually of good quality; the hifi stores are going to get their turntables the same way you would.
	* Widest selection of turntables and accessories.

	~~Disadvantages:~~
	* Turntable shipping costs are high. Hifi stores will roll in the shipping costs.
	* You may need to pay sales tax.
	* Very little to no support.

	~~==Used==~~
	There is a huge market for used turntables for any number of reasons. There is a high turnover rate in DJ turntables from people who have attempted to DJ as a hobby. Many people junk their turntables when upgrading their stereos. Audiophiles resell their turntables when upgrading.

	~~Hifi stores sometimes resell turntables or demo units, and it is worth checking them for any deals. They are sometimes competitive.~~

	In general, as a disadvantage, used turntable quality is completely unknown. At the very least you should expect to replace the cartridge and the drive train (belt). At the worst, there may be fundamental structural issues with the turntable, such as a damaged tonearm or bearing or motor, that may not be easily repairable.

	~~===Local stores===~~
	~~These include pawn shops and charity stores - Salvation Army, Goodwill, etc.~~
	~~Advantages:~~
	* Very, very good deals on some items.
	* Inexpensive.
	* Local; needs no shipping.
	~~Disadvantages:~~
	* Completely unknown quality. Expect to replace the belt if necessary, cartridge, and possibly even the tonearm and wiring.
	* Selection is spotty, and the really good items can get snatched by the store workers.

	~~===Online stores and individuals===~~
	~~Notables here include eBay and Audiogon, but also check forums on places like Head-Fi, Audio Asylum, etc for sale posts.~~
	~~Advantages:~~
	* Large market in turntables of all price ranges.
	* Sellers are often fairly knowledgable.
	* Prices are quite competitive.
	~~Disadvantages:~~
	* Stores take a rather large cut of the sale price. Audiogon is especially criticized for this. (This isn't a problem with forum interactions.)
	* The risk of shipping damage is quite high. 3rd-party sellers often have ''very'' little experience packaging and sending turntables.
	* Risky product quality.
	* No support.